I’m reminded of Roald Dahl’s first version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The Oompa Loompas were dark-skinned pygmies from some fantastical African land.
He hadn’t set out to be racist or malicious in his writing, but the NAACP in America read his story and wrote to him asking him to change the Oompa Loompas.
They said that a story about little Africans being put to work in a factory may be delightful to some but would be deeply hurtful to others and also send quite a strange message about real history.
Dahl reflected and saw their point, so he rewrote the Oompa Loompas to have orange skin and green hair. If someone today suggested changing them back, you’d think they were nuts.
They sort of did change them back in the Johnny Depp movie. They even show him making a deal with the company loompa chief in his village. I've never thought about how weird it is until now.
That’s still how it is in the book. They just changed the description of them. They still live in Oompa Loompah Land in tree houses and eat horrible food and get preyed on by monsters, so Wonka offers them work for cocoa.
Its just a handfull fanatic Christian villages that still do black. We all know those villages as Dutch people, they are famous for being old traditioned and slow to change. Its not a normal thing in the Netherlands. At 99% places you wont see this.
Weird thing is we see this post every year from this same place. These christians are proud to not change like the rest. The longer people give this attention, the longer they will do it like this. This village is called Urk and really doesnt even want to be part of the Netherlands. They complain about a gay president, about other cultures etc.
For people that want to get a bit more context: this place is called Urk, they are famous for doing everything the old ways and not change. They dont like the Dutch gay premier, they hate other beliefs, church on Sunday is like a obligation there. They dont even want to be Dutch. Only place over here you can find people that like Trump btw. They even have a own television series so we can watch their weird ways and language.
If you want to go back in history over here, thats the place to go. It is like a living museum.
But this isn’t Urk, this is Scheveningen part of Den Haag. A rather big city, what i’ve read on insta is that a group of Duindorpers, participate on the tour.. don’t know how they get in the tour. This is really disgusting behaviour..
Europeans keep saying that there's no racism in their country except for a itty bitty amount of racists. That's unfortunately, not how the world is....
Not arguing the righteousness of Piet itself, but comparing it to Santa and especially its elfs is incorrect. Also, I'm not sure the hyper commercialized, completely corporate icon that is current day Santa is much better than this old tradition inspired by hyper commercialized practices.
As a Dutch person, I want to say this has largely (like 95%) been replaced by ”soot" Pete (people keep their own skin color and just apply smudges) by now.
A decade or so ago, there was a huge debate on whether or not this needed to be changed. It took a while, but eventually the change side convinced most people that it was indeed racist, or at least offensive and not essential to the tradition.
Now, I can imagine that it is unfathomable to you that anyone could not realise how racist this is. It may sound unbelievable, but as a kid I genuinely never associated Zwarte Piet with black people. All Dutch people were raised with this mythical figure; they were our Minions.
And as a kid, I had simply never seen anyone so black, with such big lips and gold earrings, so I didn't make the connection. Actual black people looked very different to me.
When I was 15 or so, activists told me it was racist. To me, this came out of the blue. I think this is what caused a lot of resistance initially: present day people genuinely did not have racist intentions and were genuinely unfamiliar with the concept of racist black face plays.
These days, there are just a few "hardline" conservative towns left, which is what you see here. I'm convinced they will follow suit sooner or later.
Growing up, I never associated Zwarte Piet with racism either. It was simply part of our childhood, and hardly anyone questioned it. The Netherlands was also less culturally diverse back then, or at least that diversity was less visible.
But times change. I am biracial as well, and while I never personally found Zwarte Piet offensive, I can absolutely understand why others do. Looking at it now, the blackface, exaggerated red lips and earrings are pretty hard to justify.
Even today, seeing a traditional Zwarte Piet doesn't personally bother or offend me. But I understand that others feel differently, and I think that's perfectly valid.
Same as the Dutch people never questioned the slaves pictured on the Golden Carriage either, driven by the Dutch king and his wife. Fact of the matter is that colonialism is ingrained in European culture and most people don’t even realize it. They’re just raised this way, like in Israel. And that’s when it becomes dangerous.
Well, here's the thing: the "punisher/bogeyman" narrative around Zwarte Piet used to be that after the burlap sack was emptied of presents for the good kids, he'd put the naughty kids in the sack and take them back to Spain.
What most Dutch people don't know, or have collectively forgotten, is that this is a historical reference, not just a made-up story to scare kids. Moorish slave raiders from the Barbary Coast/Northern Africa scourged European coastal communities for centuries, from ~1500 to ~1800, abducting entire villages to be sold on slave markets in "Spain", which was Moorish territory for a large part of this period.
When Saint Nicholas' Dutch version was conceived back in ~1850, this was still very much part of our collective memory and consciousness, and therefore a "plausible" bogeyman story that would genuinely terrify kids into behaving.
I'll admit, Zwarte Piet being a depiction of a Moorish slave raider is no less awkward than if it were straight up blackface, i.e. intended to mock black people. And I know the optics are really, really bad, which is why I'm happy that we've transitioned to "Soot Smudge Pete".
So yeah, the whole getup does depict an exaggerated black person from Northern Africa. But it's not the same thing as the blackface we know from American history, the difference being that the latter was clearly and obviously intended to mock black people, while the former was intended to depict a scary, plausible bogeyman.
It's not like the Dutch are hiding their deep and pervasive racism from the world, and pretending "it's just tradition". It really is "just tradition", and the whole issue got hijacked by racist assholes.
Yes, but the illustrations in "Sint Nicolaas en zijn Knecht", the 1850 book by Jan Schenkman that coined our modern interpretation of Saint Nicholas, show a Moor dressed almost exactly like the Moors from Northern-Italian Saint Nicholas celebrations.
Given that we've already borrowed/culturally absorbed the "coming down the chimney" bit from Italian traders moving north along the Rhine and sharing their stories about La Befana, it's not much of a stretch to conclude that that's where Schenkman got his image of a Moor.
The image may have evolved from there throughout the centuries, and become more exaggerated... But I don't see how one is more offensive than the other.
I mean, have you seen how modern-day Italians still dress when they depict Saint Nicholas' team of Moorish servants? I don't know if you're of a generation that's familiar with Dragon Ball Z, but if so, imagine an army of Mr. Popos. (Who are strictly "the good guys", by the way. The bogeyman role is fulfilled by Krampus' extended family.)
Both are depictions of a Moor. Ours is just a branch-off. Funnily enough, our tradition is embroiled in controversy, while nobody appears to bat an eye at the Italian version.
Yes, it was made by a racist School teacher. So yes, the people in the video are perpetuating a racist stereotype, and as much as they claim they aren't each and every one of them knows they're performing a racist stereotype, they're just pissy people are calling them out for being racist.
Yep. The origin is definitely from the caricatures back in the day. The Netherlands took awhile to acknowledge that this was in fact racist. Good news, the hardcore ones are slowly dying out so hopefully soon we’ll be rid of this
I heard a theory that we used to have krampus like figures, but that was deemed to scary and also devil worship so christian leaders created the black charicature to be more friendly and also not devilworship. It was supposed to be a better figure .. boy that went wrong. Idk if this is true bjt having read a lot about how the church went about reducing pagan traditions it wouldn't surprise me
Black face in a America and South Africa (where I'm from) has an entirely different meaning, and has since become the only meaning.
People would "dress up" as black people to make fun of them. These were extremely racist, essentially "clowning" black people. It was often paired with the double standard of performing black music as a "white safe" version.
From what I understand, even though Zwarte Piet may have had racial undertones (they were jokingly evoking black people), the actual outcome and intent was very different. Much closer to celebrating Zwarte Piet as a friendly mischievous figure instead of making fun of black people necessarily.
tl, dr:
It was traditionally black face but the historical context in Netherlands was different to USA and South Africa.
You are thinking of Minstrel* shows popular in America in from the late 1890s and through 1960s including Jim Crow.
Even actors like Judy Garland, Gaucho Marx and cartoons like Mickey Mouse had a 'mammy' gag as a reference to Mammy, the character played by Hattie McDaniel from the American classic "Gone With the Wind"
Where do you think Aunt Jemima came from?
Yes, it's still racist. And honestly, weird in a gross way.
It’s “minstrel” shows. And “mammy” predated “Gone with the Wind” by many decades. The movie referred to an existing trope rather than creating one. E.g.,
In Australia we had this character the golliwog. A black, curly haired mischievous character. It was popular in the west (including America and England). It has since been called into question, as whether intended or not the character is too close in looks of a minstrel.
I think there are racist undertones. Much like this Dutch character. A curious coincidence is that the first golliwog book is of the golliwog and two Dutch dolls. Makes one wonder if this festival or lore is being referenced.
Gollywoggs are certainly based on blackface minstrelsy. The original creator of the kid’s book character The Golliwogg Florence Kate Upton was born in the US in the mid 1800s during the absolute peak of blackface minstrel shows in the US, before moving England as a kid and based her character on a doll she had bought from an American fair.
The tailcoat and bow-tie that persisted from Upton through Enid Blyton’s Noddy character is a textbook minstrel costume.
These conservative weirdos (looking down at you, Margaret Thatcher) and small-town biddies in NZ and Aus who insist it’s nostalgic and not racist because “we loved our Golly dolls and didn’t think of them as black people!” and think there’s nothing offensive about a shop window display full of the things just because minstrel shows never made it big down under are dumber than rocks.
There are many douchebags in small town Australia who think it’s more important to be stubborn than compassionate, especially when they want to stay ignorant about something. When challenged they nearly always double down.
Yeah, I don’t want to generalise about a whole generation because there are always many exceptions.
But with some of the boomer generation and Golly dolls that stubbornness you describe seems very stark.
They read an article from a black woman explaining exactly why walking her young black son past a display of gollywog dolls at a craft fair is a deeply uncomfortable experience for her, and instead of immediate empathy for that woman and agreement that the dolls shouldn’t still be made and sold and displayed like this in the 2020s they just dig their heels in and get very emotional and defensive. Their feelings of nostalgia are more important to them than anything else.
Yep, Golliwogs were popular in the UK too. You used to get them on jars of a bestselling jam, so people are just having breakfast with a bit of blackface smiling up at them with their toast. Looking back it seems almost unbelievable how naive we were to the racist context. I guess it's easy to be that way from a position of privilege. Thank goodness things have changed - as you say, it was racist via ignorance at the time, but anyone persisting with it today is intentionally racist.
If you use the term Golliwog in the uk or Ireland be prepared to be stared at 😬 and if there’s black people around, be prepared for a smack. That’s on par with “uncle tom”. It’s very racist
Probably should have mentioned the author was American, I think she moved to the uk. It just happened to be popular in Australia as well. My first sentence was a bit misleading.
Wild to think this could have been new holland had they landed in a more hospitable location.
Growing up in my village, people playing Zwarte Piet would absolutely put on an exaggerated Caribbean accent and behave extremely dumb and like a clown. So while the intentions are different I still honestly don’t agree that it’s thàt different. 😭
Plenty of blackface stock characters in the US were still depicted as “friendly mischievous figures” in minstrel shows. Depicting a racial stereotype as a friendly clown doesn’t change the fact that you’re depicting them as clowns.
Edit: to all the Dutch people responding: listen, I know this character was probably an important part of your childhood and I sincerely have no doubt that you didn’t even consider that it was a racist caricature because you saw it as an innocent thing, but that doesn’t change that it is an ethnic caricature, and no amount of espousing Zwarte Piet’s positive characteristics is going to change the fact that the original form of the character was a black, happy-go-lucky, servile clown who hands out treats to children with a smile on his big red clown lips, and that’s just not an okay thing to depict when we know better, now.
I know you think it makes a difference, but it really is the same thing. It made me feel weird as hell as a black kid in class in the 1980s, and it's worse now that everyone involved has no excuse not to know better. This absolutely is mocking. It's not inclusive of a big group of kids everyone conveniently glosses over. Wildly embarrassing behaviour.
While the historical context was different. The prevailing way it is received today is negative, and those that are insulted by it made the message very clear on why.
Once us dutch got told what we were doing was seen as offensive, the choice to change should have been an easy one. Most of the resistance in the beginning was because for many the idea of having done something that could have been seen as racist was horrifying to them, and they were trying to convince the offending party.
Luckily most people these days listened to the ask to change and have done so, and that is the main difference between doing something racist by accident, and being a racist.
The people you see in the early 90's that did this, did something racist but are not racists. the people in the video today. Are racists.
My black friend was teased and called zwarte piet all her childhood in NL. She hated and dreaded sinterklaas day. She no longer lives nor want to live in NL. Just because you didn't associate zwarte piet with black folks doesn't mean others don't.
Ive veen here for ten years. Today i went to the intocht for the second time. All i see is soot piets and kids of allllll colors enjoying themselves, all dressed up with smudges on their face. This is in Rotterdam, im happy to see it. No idea what it was before but i dont get the feeling the festivities are now lessened because of the soot piets
As a kid I don't recall making the link between Zwarte Piet and black people. Zwarte Piet was a character. Grew up rural and we didn't have a lot of black people in the village I grew up in which made it easier not to make that link.
When the whole discussion started I was annoyed because one side seemed to make everything look like it had racist intent. The other side used it as a dog whistle for their racism. And I think a lot of people in between who didn't really care.
Now that I'm a parent and we celebrate it with my kids I see that not making Piet black is so much better. Piet is still a character and all kids can feel included without the attached racism. My kids don't love celebrating Sinterklaas more or less because of the color of Piet's skin than I did.
Hearing stories later in life of black friends and coworkers how they hated it as kids made me realise that keeping the tradition is not worth it if it means children, who lack any understanding of why, can't feel included because of the color of their skin.
Fuck people who think their opinion of what a tradition should look like is more important than the joy and happiness of others, especially children.
Am Dutch as well. After fifteen years of the Zwarte Piet discussion this is the most perfect explanation of the whole thing I've ever read. Thanks mate.
Hearing stories later in life of black friends and coworkers how they hated it as kids made me realise that keeping the tradition is not worth it if it means children, who lack any understanding of why, can't feel included because of the color of their skin.
This is all there is to it, really. I had the same kind of realisation at an embarrassingly advanced age.
Hungarian here. We do not have this celebration here and I don't even know what it is about to be honest, but we do have a card game called Black Peter ("Fekete Péter") which has a card with a chimney sweeper kid or a kid who has fallen through the chimney and is totall covered in coal/black dust. The kid on the card does not look like an afrikan black person, rather a visibly white boy with blonde straight short hair covered with black dust. Basically every card had a pair, except for black peter. All players drew a set of cards then held them up in their hands so the others could not see what you had, then one player chose one card from someone else's hand. If you dound the pair to one of your cards you could put it down, thats one point for you. Most points/pairs wins, but if you were the one having Peter in your hand you lost, no matter how many points you had. My grandma had a version of it where peter was a black cat dor some reason but I loved it.
The way I see it, part of this tradition might have reached my country before it evolved into having an afrikan kid as a symbol, rather then the original chimney-sweeper? Can someone enlighten me please?
I wish this reply was at the top. Same for me, I never associated Zwarte Piet with black people as a kid, and I grew up near Amsterdam ZuidOost, with a large black community. At first I was very much against stopping the tradition. We only have a few, why did we have to give this up?
I now realize how much the origins are rooted in racism and whenever I see shit like OPs video it’s just so cringe. I was afraid kids would find it odd, but nothing’s changed, and there’s an entire group who now feels included. It’s a win/win in my book. And I just can’t understand why the fuck people just can’t accept it like it is now.
My black friend was teased and called zwarte piet all her childhood in NL. She hated and dreaded sinterklaas day. She no longer lives nor want to live in NL.
It’s weird (and maybe telling?) that for this whole weird-ass tradition (its fun and all, but come on, its quite strange, dude coming from Spain and all that), that we completely keep as is (besides the color of the servant), the color of the servant is what defines the tradition??
I actually changed my mind about Zwarte Piet as well.
I used to be in favour of keeping the traditional Zwarte Piet, mainly because I grew up with it myself. As a child, I never associated Piet with black people or racism. To me, he was simply a character associated with Sinterklaas
And for context, I'm mixed-race myself, half Dutch and half Moluccan, so I have a bit of colour myself. But even then, I never personally experienced Zwarte Piet as something racist growing up.
I also think it's important to acknowledge that the vast majority of people celebrating Sinterklaas with the traditional Zwarte Piet never had any racist intentions. Not everything is automatically rooted in racism, and I still believe we shouldn't take everything too seriously.
However, I've come to understand that intentions aren't everything. Dutch society has become more diverse, and I can absolutely understand why black children might experience the tradition very differently from how I experienced it growing up. Just because I never felt offended by it doesn't mean others couldn't have had a completely different experience.
And ultimately, what do we actually lose by changing Piet's appearance? Nothing, really. The magic of Sinterklaas is still there, children still love it, and now more children can enjoy it without feeling excluded.
While I agree most people who celebrated it with the traditional Zwarte Piet aren't racist, I feel it's a bridge too far to say the tradition itself isn't rooted in racism. Zwarte Piet originated during the height of Dutch colonialism, and the costume clearly plays on several racial stereotypes, from the exaggerated lips and the earrings to the hair and the mannerisms.
In my opinion, even if the racist intentions are usually not there in the minds of our contemporaries, it doesn't take away from the offensiveness of the caricature. We can't ignore that the people who invented this character were the same who sent slaves on ships to the Americas, or who set up human 'zoos' deep into the 20th century.
And I don't even think this whole reinterpretation of the tradition is a new thing. We all grew up hearing the Piets were black because of soot. Which yeah, doesn't really explain any of the other characteristics. I'm just speculating but it's almost like people were already trying to downplay the racial stereotypes by explaining it away in this way.
To me, the new Piet with the black marks actually lines up with the supposed reason they're black. It makes the rest of the costume also feel like less of a stereotype. It just doesn't make sense to me why people are so opposed to it.
I am 56, and when I was in 6-10, each year, the kids in my class would bully the only black kid in class. They called him servant (knecht) and would order him to do things constantly. Zwarte Piet definitely caused that each year. The last year he left because of that.
Having to sing "Even though I'm black as soot, I mean well" while thinking of my dark-skinned basisschool friend is a sad memory. I'm glad things have finally changed on a big enough scale.
I translate that line as "Even though I'm black as soot, my intentions are good" to keep the rhyming scheme. Its one of the most fucked up aspects of the entire tradition, but barely gets any attention because on a superficial level it seems okay.
I honestly like the roetveegpiet better too. It fits the story. Like why is Piet completely evenly black if it's just from the chimney? I kind of cringe when I see the full black piet now. My kids also don't give a shit, obviously.
That is exactly what I asked my family members 10 or 15 years ago when the discussion started! I studied in a very international environment, so I changed my mind very early on in the discussion, but I remember those were heated discussions. They just kept bringing up how Pete is black because of the chimney and I just kept asking but does the chimney also give red lips, earrings and an afro? If yes, how? And they just didn't have an answer to that, but I was still wrong. It was infuriating lol. Now my mom hires a roetveegpiet every year. I honestly have no idea when and how they finally changed their minds. I do remember a lot of people finally turning when Arjen Lubach did a sketch on it.
I think that for a lot of (white)people the only associations they have with zware piet are positive right? As a kid they didn’t and couldn’t conceptualize the racist caricature and they’ve never thought about that again. And then as adults they then go pure defense when they think they are called racists - instead of reëvaluating.
For some people it just takes a little longer sadly.
The part about him being black from the chimney was added more recently (70s or 80s?) as a way to explain away the racist caricature. I think a lot of people born after that change also never heard the part about him whipping bad kids and stuffing them into a sack to be brought back to Spain and turned into pepernoten.
this is the thing I think people miss. making piet just a guy with coal on him harms no one, but keeping him a caricature of a black person is guaranteed to harm black kids. why choose to harm black children when you can make such a minor change that no one will notice and harms no one in the process?
As a Dutch person I want to say that many adults are mature enough to accept that while they maybe never saw the racist side of it (like me, it just never occured to me until pointed out) they can accept and understand the problematic apprerance + it's a kids party it doesn't need to be fun or nice for adults, forget about your own nostalgia its now time for the new generation to enjoy it and the children don't give a crap about the skin color of our piet, they come for the sweets, presents and excitement of it.
Unfortunately there is also a big group who just doesn't want to admit it's racist as I believe they don't want to be treated as a racist. The funny part of it is that nobody did! Until they started throwing a tantrum about wanting to keep Piet in blackface costume. That's when literally the true colours were showed.
I agree with 90% of what you said. Expect kids not caring part, kids do care. Until you have a kid come home crying because he's being called Zwarte Pete at school.
I'm as light skinned as they come but many of my Black/mixed family members are not, nor was my then best friend in middle school. I remember vividly when I was singing along to "even though I'm black as soot, I mean well" (Dutch people will know the song) and thinking... Why would someone with super dark skin not mean well? What about my friend? He's always been so nice and he has dark skin! Why would I assume he's not nice because of the way he looks?
Kids absolutely notice and care. Just not every "colourway" of kid. Just like every other form of systematic injustice, the privileged group never notices any issue. Doesn't mean it's not there.
It’s also interesting that they use the “our traditions” excuse all the time.
Whereas the real tradition was about being beaten with a broom made of sticks when you misbehaved (or krampus giving you coal in some other countries) which was then downgraded to you’ll be put into a bag and sent back to Spain.
And today another version slightly more in tune with today’s world.
Traditions change, people mature, etc
"Being taken back to Spain in the bag" was a euphemism for "being abducted to 'Spain' i.e. Moorish territory/the Barbary Coast and sold on the slave markets".
That's lie I used to love in Belgium and went school there. I got called zwarte piet just for existing. Children aren't stupid. They are very observant and ruthless
I feel so sorry for you! That must have been awful.
I also believe the redditor above isnt lying. I'm white from a small town in Friesland and I have played Zwarte Piet a couple of times. There arent many black people where I'm from, and almost all of them played zwarte piet as well.
It wasnt until Sylvana simons pointed out that this was racist (on a talkshow or newspaper) that i started to realise this. One of my mixed friends in uni told me that she thought she looked a lot like her black parent while in black paint and then became part of Kick out zwarte piet. I got vocal about it at that time as well.
But as kid? The comparison with black people was never made in my mind and nobody pointed it out to me. Maybe there just weren't enough black people around me to experience this.
This whole generation of kids now has never seen anything other than roetveeg piet and there isn't any excuse to use blackface anymore now that we all know better. But not everyone knew that it mimicked black people and was racist until 15 or 20 years ago.
I just feel so ashamed of myself when I look back at pictures of myself playing zwarte piet, and maybe I should have known better, but I didnt.
I agree, but in small villages where i come from, i never saw it as racist as a child (ofcourse). The locals you knew where 'blackface' to hide there identity. That doesn't work if they look like themself with another costume. And as a child you thought they where black because they went through the chimney to somehow give you treats in your shoe at night and presents at 5 december.
The tradition has been changing a lot over time, and definitely for the better.
Back in my parents' day, the Pieten were portrayed in full blackface—acted dumb, wore gold earrings, had exaggerated red lips and afros, and were basically slaves without being called that.
When I was growing up, they still had full blackface, but their roles had shifted. In a lot of cases, they were portrayed as highly educated, and from my perspective as a kid, they seemed more like capable helpers for a very elderly man.
Nowadays, they’ve changed it up with soot streaks and colors instead, which is where most of the pushback from the group u/Dear_Roof_1869 mentioned is coming from.
this is going of memory and is my experience. its santa with the elfs replaced for people, in the most basic sense
I was so much more relaxed around the pieten than I was around Sinterklaas. That guy scared me. (I was mostly a good kid but could have emotional outbursts that weren't good)
I grew up with the zwarte Piet, got a bit annoyed at first about the change (I was ~17) (no, it's not the same as Blackface! Stop importing your issues onto us!) then changed opinion over a year (I don't see a good reason not to change it. And if it'll help one kid...) and glad that it's been changed.
There's a lot of mixups and forgotten history that plays into all of this.
Black facepaint as a concept surrounding Saint Nicholas/winter solstice celebrations is centuries older than our modern Saint Nicholas tradition. It goes back to pagan rituals where people would depict Odin/Wodan and the Wild Hunt, and go door to door making noise, looking for fertile women, and scattering dried nuts and fruits as a sign of fertility. Being unrecognizable because of the face paint was always the point.
The Moorish factor that Zwarte Piet is based on came along much later, after Europe was converted to Christianity under Charlemagne and Saint Nicholas supplanted Wodan through syncretism. We most likely came by our Moor by cultural assimilation from Italian traders moving north along the Rhine. Incidentally, that's where we got the "chimney soot" story, too: we borrowed that from La Befana, the witch who more or less does Saint Nicholas' job on Three Kings' Day.
There was already a tradition in place of Saint Nicholas being accompanied by one or more bogeyman helpers who painted themselves black to be unrecognizable. The image of a Moorish slave-taker from the Barbary coast just happened to fit the image pretty damn well. (Yes, slave-taker. That's why he takes you to "Spain" in a bag if you've been naughty. Just like the real Moors did all over northern Europe for over three centuries.)
Not saying that our current interpretation, with the soot smudge petes, is a bad thing, btw. I much prefer the version of Saint Nicholas that everyone can enjoy. But the activists who are strongly against Zwarte Piet are always very keen to draw comparisons to minstrel show-type blackface, and our history of slavery. Doing their history homework, however, isn't their strong suit. And because of that, we're losing touch with a fascinating part of our cultural history, just because the primary figure involved is now taboo.
The remaining Piet characters however, without the black face, are still amazing and I’m really glad in most cities and major events like the national entrance we’ve been able to shift away from that. My small family members were just as mesmerised as I was back in the day when all the racist stuff was still at play. After all, it’s a children’s party and they all still frigging love it.
It's more more that in the end most people didn't care enough about the colour of Piet to have this dumb discussion about it every year. I always saw Piet as a positive figure and often the real hero behind the Sinterklaas celebration, so claiming that is racist is still jarring to me. The guys who keep holding on to it do often have racist intentions though.
Exactly, I thought piet was the fun guy, the hero, he was strong, Sinterklaas couldn't do it with him haha. But when pointed out I was like... Yeahhh I can see what you are saying and Piet is still the hero to my little kids regardless of colour and even gender.
The worst racists are those who refuse to fathom that their actions might be a little bit racist. They truly believe that the racists are anyone else but them.
I feel like Zwarte Piet is now pretty much a dog whistle for racists.
The time where you could claim you didn't know it was racist is well done. Everybody still arguing for blackface Piet is probably very racist.
It's just that there's a sizeable part of the population who still think there are semi valid arguments (i.e. tradition, "didn't mean it", etc) so that arguing for blackface Piet isn't immediately recognized as racist. Hence why it's a good dog whistle.
If i ever found out my children called anyone zwarte piet out of spite, they would have seen a side of me they didn't know existed. And it isn't pretty.
A big part of the issue is lack of parenting, in my view.
Im a mixed girl that grew up in belgium. I remember being a kid in the mid 2000's and when the season came around in primary school, we'd have a sinterklaas event at some point. Our school took us to the city of sint-niklaas for "pietentrainting" just a fun day for the kids. Seeing a building themed to sinterklaas and the pieten staying there. Doing like a height-parkours thing on benches,...
And what i'll never forget is how when all the other kids that wanted to get the makeup and wig and costume, they only gave me the costume cause I "didn't need the face paint or wig".
And in my kid mind of course I didn't dwell on it. Even though i knew it was supposed to be soot and not the color of their skin.
But whenever this convo kicks up in winter I remember that moment where I was an elementary school child who wasn't allowed to dress up with the other kids cause I "already looked like that", because I was mixed.
So while you might not see the racism because "aah no its soot or whatever...", and begging to keep it "for the kids" as if your nostalgia has anything to do with kids today. But as a person of colour living here, in Belgium I hate it.
One of my friends in elementary was the only black kid in class. The pietendag he stayed home and at the time I didn't understand why (because he told me he wasn't sick the next day). I only realized why a few weeks ago when I saw a related video and remembered him.
It’s so interesting that every comment from black/mixed people in this thread who lived in places that celebrated this are agreeing that it contributed to racism and had negative effects on them growing up, while the white ones are lambasting ‘Americans’ for seeing it as ‘problematic’ when it’s just ‘wholesome cultural festivities’… as per usual, people don’t like when the thing they enjoy is revealed to have negative effects and will defend it like their child for no reason
I'm a mother of a 7 year old mixed kid in Belgium. This is probably the last year she will still believe in Sinterklaas. Every year Sinterklaas and zwarte pieten still come to her school. She loves it. I hate it. She's too young to see the racism behind it, but that'll change. The Netherlands has largely moved away from this racist stereotype, but Belgium, unfortunately, hasn't for the most part. I don't understand how this can still even be up for discussion in 2026.
Leuven is a generally progressive city. You will see zwarte piet where you expect it, in communities where people vote for the right-wing parties. Even in official events organised by towns, not only Ninove where the most racist party is in power, also Aalter where the party of our prime minister is in power.
Come on guys, what you're looking at here are small groups of assholes that don't want to change. The rest of the country has adapted years ago. Here's a picture of the "arrival" of Sinterklaas earlier today (with a new actor, for the first time in years). No blackface, just soot smears. They're not called Black Pete anymore, but something like Chimney Pete or Soot Pete. Children absolutely love this holiday, they're singing songs, getting candy and lots of presents, like your Christmas.
If you're not Dutch: that's a famous comedian who's role is 'Pete Panic'. Whenever something goes wrong -about 3 times a day, there's a daily news journal on tv - he screams 'Panic, panic'. One of the favourites.
This has always been the version I had been told and read about myself. Sinterklaas’ helpers have black faces because of the sooth that clung to them from climbing through chimneys. I’m a nineties child so it wasn’t because of the recent discussions.
I know what you mean because I was the same as a kid, but look at the afro-textured hair, big red lips, earrings. Of course it’s stereotypical and I’m glad Piet has changed into a real soot Piet.
Same here. I never associated them with people of colour. I also do not find it hard to imagine children of Surinamese or other backgrounds felt uneasy at least and had to deal with some racist remarks.
It's simply human nature. Change is difficult, and traditions are deeply important to many cultures, including Dutch culture. What seems meaningless to an outsider can hold a lot of sentimental value to those who grew up with it.
Ultimately, what matters is that people are willing to learn, reflect and allow their traditions to evolve with the times. Culture isn't static, and it shouldn't be.
I think it’s because they find it uncomfortable to think that they enjoyed something that could be racist. Even when they didn’t realise it was.
They’re scared that there is a bit of truth to the accusation of being racist.. e.g. if someone said the colour of your skin is blue you’d be like “it’s not” and then move on with your life, you wouldnt start throwing a tantrum and trying to convince everyone that your skin isn’t blue.
It has always felt like an innocent celebration for children. The most important and happy celebration of the year, at least for me when I was a kid.
I never even considered it was racist, I just bought the story of these guys being so black from going up and down chimneys. It felt shocking that such an 'innocent' celebration for children was accused of racism.
It took me a few days to process. Then I realized it is pretty racist indeed.
It's pretty much this. I had friends and family members who had dressed up as Zwarte Piet years ago. They plainly said it wasn't racist and just a part of the national tradition. Lol. As if their opinion is worth more than the opinion of people who had an issue with it or something?
The national discussion about this has indeed been finished already. But about ten years ago it was still a hot debate so it is relatively recent that this all changed.
I remember the documentary that came out arguing for changing this in 2014. The makers dressed up as black pete and went to London to film reactions. This particular clip has not aged all that well for different reasons: https://youtu.be/LBLBxb29maw
Don't live in the Netherlands, but I go occasionally, took me two seconds to recognise that as Scheveningen. A lot of the locals really do have some strong...beliefs
I celebrated not far from there. And not a single zwartpiet (black face) to be seen
if anything some kids/parents have little bit of charcoal marking. It’s like that for years already, full black face is not a common anymore.
It really looks like they just went out of their way to find likely minded individuals. This video is far from being representative of how the celebration happens in NL.
Black person living in Netherlands (came here as an immigrant when I was 8 in 2008) was not aware of any racist connotations as a kid. Nobody associated you with "sinterklaas' helper". You just knew they just threw candy and delivered the presents.
Also since they were acrobatic in the stories we would wear the outfits to school around 5th of dec and in gym class would receive a "pietendiploma" or "pete certificate" at the end of class good times.
Hate to say it but the whole racist lens was mostly cast by foreigners (I say that as a guy who integrated pretty well).
If it changed to what is is rn so be it, but the group that felt their culture got rewritten does have a legit point if you ask me (so ofc do the people that see it for blackface and blackface = bad)
The best part was that despite the holiday being called "sinterklaas" I was always looking forward to the "Black piet" because they always had the candy and presents. Sinterklaar was that old man that just sat in a chair and did nothing. Black piets were acrobatic and fun!
Some Dutch person came in trying to defend the blackface depiction by saying the Netherlands doesn’t have the same history of mistreating black people as America (lmao) so it isn’t offensive over there but they deleted the comment before I could send my reply so I’m posting it below ⬇️
Don’t be naive. Depictions of Zwarte Piet have a history of using blackface. While minstrel shows may not have been invented in the Netherlands, American minstrel show touring acts became popular in Europe in the mid 19th century and the Dutch took inspiration from them when it came to creating the character.
The modern depictions of him with a few smudges of coal are fine seeing as that’s the reason you all give for his face being black. Trying to hold on to the full blackface and red lips depiction and then playing dumb about it is just cruel.
The writer who invented the “modern” depiction of black Pete also wrote books that were quite antisemitic. Besides the obvious colonizer mentality of a 1800s dutch person. Not a great guy.
As a Dutch person who has traveled African countries, locals always told me that the Dutch were not one of the bad guys in colonialism. To which I always have to explain that we basically controlled the trade routes, making slave trade at the scale it existed possible.
Surinamese person here. The Dutch were one of the worst. The fact that you haven’t asked the colonized countries themselves shows your level of ignorance
I'm litterally telling people who tell me my country was cool during colonialism that we were definitely not. I am actively telling people of the cruelties of the Netherlands and to stop overlooking them as a source of evil. How am I ignorant to you?
It's now a small subset of people that are obnoxious about the "keep blackface Piet". Unfortunately, yes, but in general people have moved on and recognize the racist depiction of before.
It will take some time, but the better alternative is rapidly normalizing and the racist history is more and more just that: history.
Yeah I’m well aware that they’re a part of the ignorant minority. Shout out to you guys for acknowledging the past and trying to better the future. A lot of us are trying to do that here in the states too. (Though definitely not enough 🙄)
East India Company belies anyone saying the Netherlands didn't have a serious role in slavery and colonialism. Slavery accounted for about 10% of the GDP of the country at the time of the slave trade. You could argue that the Dutch owe a good part of their current prosperity to this horrible practice. It certainly helps if you can also depict that black people are inferior to justify it, yes?
The first time I heard someone say it was that I was like that doesn't look anything like soot. You can actually put this on your face. Why do you have to do being like it doesn't make any sense visually?
I love all the Dutch freaks in the comments pretending racism is some unique American disease as if they and the rest of Western Europe didn't have brutal colonial empires.
Dutch asian here. To me it’s exactly the same as singing hanki panki shanghai for birthdays when I was a little kid. For every kid’s birthday, we’d sing multiple versions of happy birthday. Sometimes they’d sing hanki panki shanghai for others but every single year for my birthday the teacher would pick this song for me.
Every single kid, including the teachers, would pull their eyes to make themselves look asian. When I experienced it for the first time, I joined them to pull my eyes, wanting to fit in since I didn’t look like them. As I got older, I became very uncomfortable and stopped doing it, wondering why they needed to do that.
I can imagine that it feels the same with the black faces of the pieten. I always felt like if a tradition makes people uncomfortable or unhappy, the tradition needs to change or just be canceled. I’m pretty sure hanki panki shanghai is no longer used. If it still is, I’d be pretty disappointed.
Ik dacht dat het van moorse slavenhandel kwam, rond de Middellandse zeekusten? Vandaar de verwijzen naar de roe en de zak, toch? Iemand die hier meer van weet?
Er werd op een gegeven moment geopperd dat zwarte piet misschien toch wel een beetje een racistische karikatuur was, maar toen was het tegenargument dat dit niet waar was en dat het kwam omdat hij door de schoorsteen kroop. Toen er vervolgens werd gezegd "okee, dus dan doen we vanaf nu wat realistischere roetvegen" bleek het eigenlijk stiekem toch om racisme te gaan. Surprise surprise.
Ik ben ook met zwarte piet opgegroeid en zag hier als blank kind geen probleem in. En kinderen vandaag de dag hebben geen problemen met een piet vol roetvegen. Het kost niets om de traditie aan te passen zodat iedereen zich er in kan vinden. Behalve de racisten dan, maar die kunnen de boom in.
I would like to point out that its just a Small part of the netherlands that insist on keeping blackface. Majority is against it or cant be arsed about it, aslong the kids are enjoying it.
Black and born in the Netherlands. I haven’t seen it (black pete) allot lately (not at all beside a doll sometimes). In most cities it has changed for the better. Years of protesting helped. Now black pete is just pete. I will not say that because one group decides to do it that progress isnt there. We came along way. The normalization of black pete being gone on a national level was the biggest win. Downvote me all you want, we won anyway :)
White dutchie here.
Hope youre not getting downvoted cause you are 100% right.
And honestly the backstory that was given in the blackface days actually matches this version (roetveegpiet) way better.
I'm happy black Pete is gone. All hail soot wipe. Pete.
Last thing. I'm just very happy that stroopwafel Pete was killed off as fast as they tried it. God that was weird
We all won. The choice basically was adapt or cancel it all together. Traditions should never be an excuse to hurt people. A shame some people can't seem to accept that.
Dont think it is about winning the tradition of sinterklaas changed a lot during the ages also skin colors changed earlier). The goal is every child needs to enjoy and be part of it.
Op except you weren't there for the discussions. There has been massive discussions for years about the ethics of keeping zwarte piet to the point that it has changed. I don't know when were you there the last time but many are understanding that internalized racism is also a thing and have gradually phased out zwarte piet.
This debate has been done to death here and at this point we all have accepted not to paint the face fully black (95% of us at least). Chimney stoornis the norm now, and it's perfectly fine. Anyone who does still do it, is 100% doing that to protest and to be racist.
Anyone who isn't Dutch and is claiming this is just part of Dutch culture, is being a piece of shit. And wrong.
Sigh. Please someone show the images of the OFFICIAL Intocht. Piet is only lightly smeared with a bit of soot here and there. The full blackface has been out of style and out of grace for so long that my son doesn't even know it used to be that way.
By now, when you see the full blackface, someone's trying to be provocative and "anti woke".
God I remember circa 15 years ago arriving in Amsterdam from an all night rave in Belgium (I Love Techno) and not being able to check into my hotel. Was shattered and on a come down and went into a coffee shop to take the edge off and when we left we were greeted with this... Had no idea about the tradition but it was utterly surreal.
We stayed for a while trying to figure out what on earth was going on.
Dutchman here: about 10 years ago, this tradition slowly started to change, and nowadays blackface is not a thing anymore here. Except for the racist bigots who still choose to offend people by doing blackface, and they do it as part of their far-right culture war, not because it is a children's tradition.
Most people (90+%) have come around and understand why the color of Sinterklaas' staff had to change and changed. Yes, it still does have problematic elements, but the most blatantly obvious problem has gone.
I think it’s worth noting that black face has tremendously different connotations in America than it does outside the US. A history of slavery and Jim Crow laws definitely supercharges the intention
Hey folks, another Dutch person here, and someone who has always been a HUGE Sinterklaas fan. I want to share a bit of a perspective if you don’t mind. I know I am one of many here, but I just wanted to share the following thought. However, I am, for his day, still a bit… divided.
Let me start of that I think it’s for the better than the tradition changed to the ‘roetveeg piet’ instead of ‘zwarte piet’. I absolutely understand and respect how black people or minorities saw racist remarks in the character ‘s depiction and I genuinely hope that a lot of more people now feel comfortable with Piet in these days, given that it’s 2026. It’s been about a decade since the debate took storm across the Netherlands and beyond. I want nothing more than EVERYONE to enjoy my absolute favorite time of the year and my favorite holiday ever that I feel is so, so, so important to Dutch culture and I absolutely would hate it if that tradition, to this day, makes people feel belittled. F*ck racism.
For a bit of context: when the whole debate about whether Black Pete was appropriate or not, it caused a whole lot of shit and debate across the Netherlands in a bit of a culture war. I think a lot of the political upheaval can be traced back to this ‘debate’ that we have nowadays.
But, as you might have surmised from my comment… I love Sinterklaas with a deep, deep passion. It has always been my favorite part of the year. There is something undeniably magical about the old man on his horse that walks across the roofs. About going to sleep and seeing a chocolate letter in your shoe the next day. About the family coming together on 5 December to celebrate. It has always been a very important factor in my life, especially as an autistic person that was obsessed with the holiday. I truly feel like there is nothing else like it, even if that enthusiasm has wavered to a tiny interest now that I’m an adult.
And so, I personally got very upset when the debate started to take place. I hated it. Why? Because in my mind, there was no way that Piet COULD be racist. Now, you might think: “How??”, but I don’t think foreigners understand the dynamic of Piet and Sint. To the children of the Netherlands, and at least in my eyes, they are considered akin to national heroes. Mythical figures that you cheer on, the basically main characters of all Sinterklaas media… ever! The Sinterklaas Broadcast? (Sinterklaas journaal), The Club of Sinterklaas? The movies? Every singular parade we had every year across the country? Yes, the old man is the big star, but the Pieten are really the ones that bring the holiday so much life. In my eyes, they were one of the coolest things ever. Every holiday, we would have ‘Pieter training’, where you would train to be a Piet yourself during gym. Sinterklaas would visit our schools. Our football fields. Everywhere and anywhere.
Think of Sinterklaas and Piet as Gru and the Minions. Sure, Gru is amazing, but it’s the Minions who everyone loves. So when it’s suddenly told to a young boy who grew up with the image of the Pieten as nothing short of absolute gigachads and heroes that they are wrong… a lot of people responded emotionally. I did as well. I didn’t get it: how could the coolest thing ever… not be the coolest thing ever?
As I got older, I wrapped my head around it and understood that yes, there were indeed issues. And I have long accepted that those needed to be fixed 100%, and I’m glad they are now and that we, as a society, have progressed in a positive way. Still, I can’t help but feel a tiny bit bitter.
This is not a shade to anyone, or any group of people. But I am bitter, a tiny bit, because I feel like a lot of the people who argued for ‘Black Pete must stay’ got misunderstood. Yes, there were racists there… but it was also a lot of people who didn’t know better. I didn’t know better. In my mind, I could’t comprehend how someone that everyone saw as a hero could be linked to racism, especially since I have always lived in a place that’s very open to many different kinds of folks ever since 1st grade primary school. Understand that a 9 year old kid isn’t going to think of Piet as a ‘racist interpretation of a black person’, because black people didn’t have the Afro hair, or the ridiculous large lips, or any of the other gold earrings. Sure, there was something resembling “hey, they are also black, why is that?” in my mind, but I genuinely doubt any child ever saw Black Pete and then wanted to be racist towards black folks. As a child, such social issues just don’t exist for you when the magic of the holiday is so real.
I know I’m rambling on, but as you might read, it’s an topic that is quite… nuanced, in my opinion. I think the changes are for the better, absolutely, and I’m glad it happened. I just hated how everyone who didn’t immediately agree on removing Black Pete were called racist, because in many cases, it wasn’t about race, but what felt like the removal of a national hero from society. Of course, that wasn’t true, but that’s how it FELT. The feelings don’t match reality, but there are others who might have felt similar. Like something was being ‘forced away’. Why? Why would the magic of your childhood have to change? I think that’s the question a lot of people grappled with. I’m happy we decided to remove Black Pete and ended that interpretation. I just wished things could have been a little less… fiery from all sides. Again, it left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Please don’t think I’m trying to hate any group of people nor am I defending Black Pete. I just wanted to share an perspective as to why people could have been upset about this whole thing from the other side. Thing of it as food for thought. If anyone reads all of this, I want to thank you kindly for spending the time to do so! If anyone has questions, I’ll gladly answer them.
A lot of pagan rituals or days were changed in a christian way or totally removed, a lot of evidence points also santa claus to pagan rituals involved with Odin, the dutch sinterklaas is also very similair.
Is the dutch one a pagan thing? It's about Saint Nicholas (so that's christian), in the lore he's from Spain, and Spain used to have a large Moor population. The outfit of black pete isn't just black face paint but also black curly hair, earrings, a rather medieval outfit, etc so it's pretty clearly imitating Moor people.
The Dutch celebration is not based on pagan rituals, but St Nicholas like you said. But, some believe that the tradition was handed down from pre-Christian times.
Most christian celebrations suspiciously occur on the same occasions as did pagan celebrations. This happens wherever a culture spreads, it merges with previous cultural features. In the case of christianity the church had an interest in writing paganism out of history, so its not so obvious anymore.
The blackness is probably a pagan thing, sure the attire has perhaps more Moor origins. Interesting that the attire is okay, but the blackness is not.
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u/Pingo-Pongo 9h ago
I’m reminded of Roald Dahl’s first version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The Oompa Loompas were dark-skinned pygmies from some fantastical African land.
He hadn’t set out to be racist or malicious in his writing, but the NAACP in America read his story and wrote to him asking him to change the Oompa Loompas.
They said that a story about little Africans being put to work in a factory may be delightful to some but would be deeply hurtful to others and also send quite a strange message about real history.
Dahl reflected and saw their point, so he rewrote the Oompa Loompas to have orange skin and green hair. If someone today suggested changing them back, you’d think they were nuts.
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u/anonnnnn462 9h ago
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u/Milefulness 7h ago edited 6h ago
As a Dutch person, I want to say this has largely (like 95%) been replaced by ”soot" Pete (people keep their own skin color and just apply smudges) by now.
A decade or so ago, there was a huge debate on whether or not this needed to be changed. It took a while, but eventually the change side convinced most people that it was indeed racist, or at least offensive and not essential to the tradition.
Now, I can imagine that it is unfathomable to you that anyone could not realise how racist this is. It may sound unbelievable, but as a kid I genuinely never associated Zwarte Piet with black people. All Dutch people were raised with this mythical figure; they were our Minions.
And as a kid, I had simply never seen anyone so black, with such big lips and gold earrings, so I didn't make the connection. Actual black people looked very different to me.
When I was 15 or so, activists told me it was racist. To me, this came out of the blue. I think this is what caused a lot of resistance initially: present day people genuinely did not have racist intentions and were genuinely unfamiliar with the concept of racist black face plays.
These days, there are just a few "hardline" conservative towns left, which is what you see here. I'm convinced they will follow suit sooner or later.
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u/Zwimol 6h ago
White Dutch person here.
As a kid I don't recall making the link between Zwarte Piet and black people. Zwarte Piet was a character. Grew up rural and we didn't have a lot of black people in the village I grew up in which made it easier not to make that link.
When the whole discussion started I was annoyed because one side seemed to make everything look like it had racist intent. The other side used it as a dog whistle for their racism. And I think a lot of people in between who didn't really care.
Now that I'm a parent and we celebrate it with my kids I see that not making Piet black is so much better. Piet is still a character and all kids can feel included without the attached racism. My kids don't love celebrating Sinterklaas more or less because of the color of Piet's skin than I did.
Hearing stories later in life of black friends and coworkers how they hated it as kids made me realise that keeping the tradition is not worth it if it means children, who lack any understanding of why, can't feel included because of the color of their skin.
Fuck people who think their opinion of what a tradition should look like is more important than the joy and happiness of others, especially children.
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u/Dear_Roof_1869 10h ago edited 10h ago
As a Dutch person I want to say that many adults are mature enough to accept that while they maybe never saw the racist side of it (like me, it just never occured to me until pointed out) they can accept and understand the problematic apprerance + it's a kids party it doesn't need to be fun or nice for adults, forget about your own nostalgia its now time for the new generation to enjoy it and the children don't give a crap about the skin color of our piet, they come for the sweets, presents and excitement of it.
Unfortunately there is also a big group who just doesn't want to admit it's racist as I believe they don't want to be treated as a racist. The funny part of it is that nobody did! Until they started throwing a tantrum about wanting to keep Piet in blackface costume. That's when literally the true colours were showed.
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u/3STUDIOS 7h ago
Im a mixed girl that grew up in belgium. I remember being a kid in the mid 2000's and when the season came around in primary school, we'd have a sinterklaas event at some point. Our school took us to the city of sint-niklaas for "pietentrainting" just a fun day for the kids. Seeing a building themed to sinterklaas and the pieten staying there. Doing like a height-parkours thing on benches,...
And what i'll never forget is how when all the other kids that wanted to get the makeup and wig and costume, they only gave me the costume cause I "didn't need the face paint or wig".
And in my kid mind of course I didn't dwell on it. Even though i knew it was supposed to be soot and not the color of their skin.
But whenever this convo kicks up in winter I remember that moment where I was an elementary school child who wasn't allowed to dress up with the other kids cause I "already looked like that", because I was mixed.
So while you might not see the racism because "aah no its soot or whatever...", and begging to keep it "for the kids" as if your nostalgia has anything to do with kids today. But as a person of colour living here, in Belgium I hate it.
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u/OMGlenn 9h ago
For the sake of ragebait, I want somebody to sneak Zwarte Pete into a western Christmas movie.
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u/Tom_Ace2 8h ago
Come on guys, what you're looking at here are small groups of assholes that don't want to change. The rest of the country has adapted years ago. Here's a picture of the "arrival" of Sinterklaas earlier today (with a new actor, for the first time in years). No blackface, just soot smears. They're not called Black Pete anymore, but something like Chimney Pete or Soot Pete. Children absolutely love this holiday, they're singing songs, getting candy and lots of presents, like your Christmas.
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u/CalligrapherOk4612 8h ago
Don't live in the Netherlands, but I go occasionally, took me two seconds to recognise that as Scheveningen. A lot of the locals really do have some strong...beliefs
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u/dust2009 7h ago
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u/ReDeaMer87 3h ago
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u/Herisoon 7h ago
I celebrated not far from there. And not a single zwartpiet (black face) to be seen
if anything some kids/parents have little bit of charcoal marking. It’s like that for years already, full black face is not a common anymore.
It really looks like they just went out of their way to find likely minded individuals. This video is far from being representative of how the celebration happens in NL.
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u/Master-Data-8765 5h ago
Black person living in Netherlands (came here as an immigrant when I was 8 in 2008) was not aware of any racist connotations as a kid. Nobody associated you with "sinterklaas' helper". You just knew they just threw candy and delivered the presents.
Also since they were acrobatic in the stories we would wear the outfits to school around 5th of dec and in gym class would receive a "pietendiploma" or "pete certificate" at the end of class good times.
Hate to say it but the whole racist lens was mostly cast by foreigners (I say that as a guy who integrated pretty well).
If it changed to what is is rn so be it, but the group that felt their culture got rewritten does have a legit point if you ask me (so ofc do the people that see it for blackface and blackface = bad)
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u/meme_de_la_cream 10h ago edited 9h ago
Some Dutch person came in trying to defend the blackface depiction by saying the Netherlands doesn’t have the same history of mistreating black people as America (lmao) so it isn’t offensive over there but they deleted the comment before I could send my reply so I’m posting it below ⬇️
Don’t be naive. Depictions of Zwarte Piet have a history of using blackface. While minstrel shows may not have been invented in the Netherlands, American minstrel show touring acts became popular in Europe in the mid 19th century and the Dutch took inspiration from them when it came to creating the character.
The modern depictions of him with a few smudges of coal are fine seeing as that’s the reason you all give for his face being black. Trying to hold on to the full blackface and red lips depiction and then playing dumb about it is just cruel.
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u/Al_Jazzar 37m ago
I love all the Dutch freaks in the comments pretending racism is some unique American disease as if they and the rest of Western Europe didn't have brutal colonial empires.
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u/ghallo_k 3h ago
Dutch asian here. To me it’s exactly the same as singing hanki panki shanghai for birthdays when I was a little kid. For every kid’s birthday, we’d sing multiple versions of happy birthday. Sometimes they’d sing hanki panki shanghai for others but every single year for my birthday the teacher would pick this song for me.
Every single kid, including the teachers, would pull their eyes to make themselves look asian. When I experienced it for the first time, I joined them to pull my eyes, wanting to fit in since I didn’t look like them. As I got older, I became very uncomfortable and stopped doing it, wondering why they needed to do that.
I can imagine that it feels the same with the black faces of the pieten. I always felt like if a tradition makes people uncomfortable or unhappy, the tradition needs to change or just be canceled. I’m pretty sure hanki panki shanghai is no longer used. If it still is, I’d be pretty disappointed.
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u/kaminsod1 7h ago
That's a catchy song.
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u/Loose_Lingonberry_96 4h ago
Nice to see, in the Dutch Antilles they do the same :)
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u/Ganjalfthegreen1 10h ago
Guys come on.. it’s just chimney soot! Nothing weird to see here
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u/Sjerd 10h ago edited 10h ago
I would like to point out that its just a Small part of the netherlands that insist on keeping blackface. Majority is against it or cant be arsed about it, aslong the kids are enjoying it.
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u/Exciting_Presence884 8h ago
Black and born in the Netherlands. I haven’t seen it (black pete) allot lately (not at all beside a doll sometimes). In most cities it has changed for the better. Years of protesting helped. Now black pete is just pete. I will not say that because one group decides to do it that progress isnt there. We came along way. The normalization of black pete being gone on a national level was the biggest win. Downvote me all you want, we won anyway :)
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u/rift_buster 10h ago edited 10h ago
I'd never heard of this untill I spent a Christmas in Curacao. I'll tell you, the locals out there don't find this offensive, they absolutely love it.
Kids were just hanging out in the evenings dressed like that, full painted faces and wigs.
The site I was working at had a Christmas party and the local workers, almost all black, brought their kids, and most of them were dressed like that.
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u/DoomSnail31 3h ago
Dutch guy here.
This debate has been done to death here and at this point we all have accepted not to paint the face fully black (95% of us at least). Chimney stoornis the norm now, and it's perfectly fine. Anyone who does still do it, is 100% doing that to protest and to be racist.
Anyone who isn't Dutch and is claiming this is just part of Dutch culture, is being a piece of shit. And wrong.
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u/pillarandstones 27m ago
The Dutch gave us the Boers by the way
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u/droidgar 26m ago
Apparently everyone on reddit is dutch now
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u/Maleficent-Car84 6h ago
Maybe people should stop getting offended about things that didn't happen to them and stop holding people accountable for stuff they didn't do.
It would make the world a much happier and funnier place.. Laugh a little, live a little.
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u/weesgegroet 8h ago
het afval putje van Scheveningen
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u/Marali87 9h ago
Sigh. Please someone show the images of the OFFICIAL Intocht. Piet is only lightly smeared with a bit of soot here and there. The full blackface has been out of style and out of grace for so long that my son doesn't even know it used to be that way.
By now, when you see the full blackface, someone's trying to be provocative and "anti woke".
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u/nad_84 7h ago
God I remember circa 15 years ago arriving in Amsterdam from an all night rave in Belgium (I Love Techno) and not being able to check into my hotel. Was shattered and on a come down and went into a coffee shop to take the edge off and when we left we were greeted with this... Had no idea about the tradition but it was utterly surreal.
We stayed for a while trying to figure out what on earth was going on.
Fun times
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u/Alternative_Buy_4000 7h ago
Dutchman here: about 10 years ago, this tradition slowly started to change, and nowadays blackface is not a thing anymore here. Except for the racist bigots who still choose to offend people by doing blackface, and they do it as part of their far-right culture war, not because it is a children's tradition.
Most people (90+%) have come around and understand why the color of Sinterklaas' staff had to change and changed. Yes, it still does have problematic elements, but the most blatantly obvious problem has gone.
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u/ApoptosisPending 9h ago
I think it’s worth noting that black face has tremendously different connotations in America than it does outside the US. A history of slavery and Jim Crow laws definitely supercharges the intention
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u/Patchy_Face_Man 9h ago
The fact they censored a great joke about this from The Office still pisses me off.
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u/JonnyDiamond87 7h ago
Essential reading/listening: 6 to 8 Black Men by David Sedaris
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u/JeGezicht 4h ago
Check the Sinterklaas intocht in the Caribbean.
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u/ItsWickie 4h ago
Hey folks, another Dutch person here, and someone who has always been a HUGE Sinterklaas fan. I want to share a bit of a perspective if you don’t mind. I know I am one of many here, but I just wanted to share the following thought. However, I am, for his day, still a bit… divided.
Let me start of that I think it’s for the better than the tradition changed to the ‘roetveeg piet’ instead of ‘zwarte piet’. I absolutely understand and respect how black people or minorities saw racist remarks in the character ‘s depiction and I genuinely hope that a lot of more people now feel comfortable with Piet in these days, given that it’s 2026. It’s been about a decade since the debate took storm across the Netherlands and beyond. I want nothing more than EVERYONE to enjoy my absolute favorite time of the year and my favorite holiday ever that I feel is so, so, so important to Dutch culture and I absolutely would hate it if that tradition, to this day, makes people feel belittled. F*ck racism.
For a bit of context: when the whole debate about whether Black Pete was appropriate or not, it caused a whole lot of shit and debate across the Netherlands in a bit of a culture war. I think a lot of the political upheaval can be traced back to this ‘debate’ that we have nowadays.
But, as you might have surmised from my comment… I love Sinterklaas with a deep, deep passion. It has always been my favorite part of the year. There is something undeniably magical about the old man on his horse that walks across the roofs. About going to sleep and seeing a chocolate letter in your shoe the next day. About the family coming together on 5 December to celebrate. It has always been a very important factor in my life, especially as an autistic person that was obsessed with the holiday. I truly feel like there is nothing else like it, even if that enthusiasm has wavered to a tiny interest now that I’m an adult.
And so, I personally got very upset when the debate started to take place. I hated it. Why? Because in my mind, there was no way that Piet COULD be racist. Now, you might think: “How??”, but I don’t think foreigners understand the dynamic of Piet and Sint. To the children of the Netherlands, and at least in my eyes, they are considered akin to national heroes. Mythical figures that you cheer on, the basically main characters of all Sinterklaas media… ever! The Sinterklaas Broadcast? (Sinterklaas journaal), The Club of Sinterklaas? The movies? Every singular parade we had every year across the country? Yes, the old man is the big star, but the Pieten are really the ones that bring the holiday so much life. In my eyes, they were one of the coolest things ever. Every holiday, we would have ‘Pieter training’, where you would train to be a Piet yourself during gym. Sinterklaas would visit our schools. Our football fields. Everywhere and anywhere.
Think of Sinterklaas and Piet as Gru and the Minions. Sure, Gru is amazing, but it’s the Minions who everyone loves. So when it’s suddenly told to a young boy who grew up with the image of the Pieten as nothing short of absolute gigachads and heroes that they are wrong… a lot of people responded emotionally. I did as well. I didn’t get it: how could the coolest thing ever… not be the coolest thing ever?
As I got older, I wrapped my head around it and understood that yes, there were indeed issues. And I have long accepted that those needed to be fixed 100%, and I’m glad they are now and that we, as a society, have progressed in a positive way. Still, I can’t help but feel a tiny bit bitter.
This is not a shade to anyone, or any group of people. But I am bitter, a tiny bit, because I feel like a lot of the people who argued for ‘Black Pete must stay’ got misunderstood. Yes, there were racists there… but it was also a lot of people who didn’t know better. I didn’t know better. In my mind, I could’t comprehend how someone that everyone saw as a hero could be linked to racism, especially since I have always lived in a place that’s very open to many different kinds of folks ever since 1st grade primary school. Understand that a 9 year old kid isn’t going to think of Piet as a ‘racist interpretation of a black person’, because black people didn’t have the Afro hair, or the ridiculous large lips, or any of the other gold earrings. Sure, there was something resembling “hey, they are also black, why is that?” in my mind, but I genuinely doubt any child ever saw Black Pete and then wanted to be racist towards black folks. As a child, such social issues just don’t exist for you when the magic of the holiday is so real.
I know I’m rambling on, but as you might read, it’s an topic that is quite… nuanced, in my opinion. I think the changes are for the better, absolutely, and I’m glad it happened. I just hated how everyone who didn’t immediately agree on removing Black Pete were called racist, because in many cases, it wasn’t about race, but what felt like the removal of a national hero from society. Of course, that wasn’t true, but that’s how it FELT. The feelings don’t match reality, but there are others who might have felt similar. Like something was being ‘forced away’. Why? Why would the magic of your childhood have to change? I think that’s the question a lot of people grappled with. I’m happy we decided to remove Black Pete and ended that interpretation. I just wished things could have been a little less… fiery from all sides. Again, it left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Please don’t think I’m trying to hate any group of people nor am I defending Black Pete. I just wanted to share an perspective as to why people could have been upset about this whole thing from the other side. Thing of it as food for thought. If anyone reads all of this, I want to thank you kindly for spending the time to do so! If anyone has questions, I’ll gladly answer them.
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u/lemur_lemur 2h ago
Bike performative activism I’m reading in the replies
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u/Propps4 6h ago edited 6h ago
In places around europe there are still pagan rituals were they paint there faces black. https://youtu.be/vzUU6M7rKec?is=DaSz8AmZx5PFxltA
A lot of pagan rituals or days were changed in a christian way or totally removed, a lot of evidence points also santa claus to pagan rituals involved with Odin, the dutch sinterklaas is also very similair.